Well, I made it through this transcription, but it was very painful for me.I have to honestly voice my opinion, no matter the consequences.
First, I found scant evidence, in this episode, of a discussion about creating peace.
In fact, particularly with Lynn Twist, I experienced an actual assault, a declaration of war, against the most financially disinfranchised and exploited peoples of Earth.
I'm not talking about my own circumstances. I'm "low" income, in the wealthiest nation on Earth.
One of my internet friends, Ahmed, lives in Alexandria, Egypt. He's a computer specialist, as are most of the other members of his family. They're middle class, but could NEVER afford a microwave, nor do they see a need for one. He's astounded that I have one, that I found it in another "poor" neighbor's garbage, and that call myself "low income!" He can't afford to marry, as he can't afford to buy an apartment, the custom in Egypt, and a requirement before marriage.
I'm also much smarter than a lot of people, a lot wealthier than I. So, my resourcefulness has helped me to create a very comfortable standard of living, compared to my former neighbors, when I lived in the War Zone -- and even compared to my neighbors, now.
Barring severe illness, I could probably continue to muddle through my life, on less than $1,000/mo., as I've done for over 20 years now.
But I'm not living in real poverty.
I flashed on how utterly ludicrous Lynn Twist would look, conducting such a workshop, in most of the third world. They'd either laugh her out of the country, or beat her to death.
This was the same "Prosperity" doctrine that has always sold well to the affluent, and to the aspiring affluent, the latter of whom take on an artificial mantle of guilt for not being spiritually "good" enough to be wealthy. It works; it sells. And it kills people.
I will never forgive Shirley McClain for a portion of _Out on a Limb_ in which she basically states that the poor & suffering are CHOOSING this experience, based on her very faulty interpretation of Karma. Therefore, she implies, her "liberal" instincts to end suffering and fight for social justice were misguided. It's not her responsiblility to interfere with others' working out of their Karma. It works; It sells. And it kills people.
Blaming the victim is nothing new, is not peacemaking and is not enlightened. It works; it sells. And it kills people.
I WISH someone would interview Don Schrader. I KNOW everybody brands him as a "kook," but he's right. He lives as low-impact, sustainable and peaceful life as anybody I know.
Going to a health food store, buying "organic" fast food, wrapped in petrochemical packaging to be tossed in the landfill, is NOT sustainable living! And the poor cannot AFFORD that fancy stuff.
But Don lives poor, and very well, without causing much damage to his part of the planet.
The second guest, Kessel, is right on the edge of discovering something profound about human brain chemistry and human psychology. He ALMOST said we live in a culture of addiction, in which we constantly seek stimuli for our overloaded dopamine receptors, which have been so BADLY abused that they can't absorb dopamine anymore, at normal levels, and require ever higher levels, just to allow an individual to feel "normal."
He also ALMOST said something very profound about the need for nurture, for mothering. But he skipped right by that one.
What NOBODY said, and what is actually true, is that the addiction to acquisition is actually a search for love, for true wellbeing. THAT is the peacemaking aspect of the conversation about money. But NOBODY went there!
I have to wonder if that's because both of these people earn money, telling people how dysfunctional people are about money. Are their writings and workshops not just another device by which people seek higher dopamine levels by buying a product?
I'm sorry, but I found the conversations very incomplete, misguided, dangerous and, frankly, self-serving on the parts of the guests.
I feel they exemplified the problem, not a viable solution.
Please see citations, below, esp. DIRT COOKIES.
"Prosperity" doctirinehttp://livinginthehood.blogspot.com/2008/02/state-sponsored-prosperity-doctrine.html
"sob story:"Haitians trick empty bellies with dirt cookieshttp://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2008/01/31/haitians_trick_empty_bellies_with_dirt_cookies/With food prices rising, Haiti's poorest can't afford even a daily plate of rice, and some take desperate measures to fill their bellies.
Charlene, 16 with a 1-month-old son, has come to rely on a traditional Haitian remedy for hunger pangs: cookies made of dried yellow dirt from the country's central plateau.
The mud has long been used by pregnant women and children here as an antacid and source of calcium. But in places like Cite Soleil, the oceanside slum where Charlene shares a two-room house with her baby, five siblings, and two unemployed parents, cookies made of dirt, salt, and vegetable shortening have become a regular meal.
"When my mother does not cook anything, I have to eat them three times a day," Charlene said. Her baby, named Woodson, lay still across her lap, looking even thinner than the slim 6 pounds, 3 ounces, he weighed at birth.
Though she likes their buttery, salty taste, Charlene said the cookies also give her stomach pains. "When I nurse, the baby sometimes seems colicky, too," she said.
Peace Talks transcript, 02/08
KRYDER: How much inner conflict does money make for people?
TWIST: I don’t think money does anything to people. I think people’s inner conflict around money is their own creation. Money’s the innocent victim. Money’s neutral. Money has no power, except the power we give it. We assign it its power, its value, its emotional and psychological power over us. We assign it so much emotional value, so much psychological power. We’ve even given it spiritual power over us. We have tremendous inner conflict over money. Pretty much everybody does. Even the wealthy have inner conflict over money.
KRYDER: What’s the solution?
TWIST: Our culture is confused and upset around money. We live in what’s now an intense tyranny of a consumer culture: a commercialized, monitized, consumer culture. Everyone alive today – not just in the United States, but it’s really intense in the United States – lives in a consumer culture that tells them they need to be something that they’re not.
KRYDER: How did we get from citizen to consumer?
TWIST: I don’t know. I wish I could answer that question; it’s a good one. I think part of what happened is that the political leadership of our nations, our churches and education gave way to corporate power. Commercialization has taken over ‘most every, basic institution on Earth. That commercialization, that monitization – thinking of everything in terms of how much money does it produce or how much money does it spend – has the lens about life become so narrow, that we can’t see outside of it anymore. We can’t see our own humanity.
KRYDER: I attended one of your workshops. You had us break into pairs. I was supposed to tell my partner my personal, financial “sob” story, while my partner looked at me with no verbal or nonverbal feedback. My story was that I should have saved more money for retirement by now. I ranted and raved. I was embarrassed and humiliated. My partner did nothing, like a stone statue. Something happened. I wouldn’t say my story is one hundred percent gone, but it’s mostly gone. How did that work? Explain to our listeners how they can let go of their “sob” story.
TWIST: Everyone has a “sob” story. Everyone thinks that theirs is real and true – that they’re the victim of this and that. That mindset, that understanding of ourselves as victim of some terrible divorce or horrible, harsh father or some awful business deal that didn’t go through – things we did that we shouldn’t have done, things we didn’t do that we should have done – that runs our relationship with money. We are all so caught in those “sob” stories. I call them “sob stories” to insult them. It doesn’t mean that the divorce the person had wasn’t enormously painful, that the settlement wasn’t unfair. But, if you live your life out of that upset, you’re never going to be satisfied. You’re never going to get over your baggage about money. If you realize that you’ve taken that incident – the divorce, the harsh father, the investment that fell through – and made it into a justification, a reason why you can’t get anywhere in your financial life. It starts to be something that makes you right, and everything else wrong. Then, you have no power. You can’t create a new future for yourself. I invite people to start labeling it a “sob story,” tell it to someone who won’t agree with or feel sorry for them -- who won’t not and moan, make you feel better, “poor you.” If you don’t give anybody agreement with their “sob” story, it starts to sound silly. It sounds like what it actually is, which is whining, moaning, complaining and not getting on with your own life. I recommend people look at where is their “sob” story located – the business deal, the dot com bomb, a divorce, an inheritance you’d hoped for that didn’t come, a harsh lesson from a parent – and just release it. Create a new future with money.
KRYDER: Lynn, you refer to Buckminster Fuller’s “Radical, Surprising Truth:” there is enough for everyone. You say “enough” is a context, not an amount. Can you explain that?
TWIST: We’re so enamored with content, which means, “how much?” We’re obsessed with amounts and measurements. What really shifts things in life and changes the game is not the content of life, but the frame – or context – from which we perceive life. That’s where we all have an enormous amount of power. When I talk about the “context of sufficiency” or the “context of enough,” I want to remove people from trying to understand, “what is enough?” I don’t want to get caught with people in that conversation, but, rather, that there is a space and a place to live from where you start to experience the “enough ness” of life. The needs of you, of me, are met – sometimes in miraculous and exquisite ways. If we let go of trying to get more of what we don’t really need (which is what we’re all scrambling to get more of; the consumer culture forces you to think that way), it frees up tons of energy to turn and make a difference with what you already have. When you make a difference with what you have, it expands. That’s a context, or a principle, of sufficiency. What you appreciate, appreciates. Focus on what’s already there. Realize how your needs are being met in exquisite, beautiful and sometimes-surprising ways. Appreciate that. That leads you to a sense of prosperity and “enough ness” in life.
KRYDER: Our show is about making peace. But making peace is a two-way process. How can people make peace with money, if it can’t talk back to us?
KESSEL: I actually feel that it does talk back to us. It’s not so much that the money’s talking back to us; it’s our inner reactions to it that are talking back. I’ve seen people have a two-way relationship with money. They project a lot of feelings, almost personifying money: it’s evil, or it’s got bad or good intentions for them. Because it’s so closely tied to survival, it’s almost a supplanted mother. Whatever issues you have with your parents, you’re likely projecting those issues onto money.
KRYDER: In your book, you talk about how people become accustomed to a specific state of being with money. It reminded me of the “set point theory,” with weight control. They say it’s largely, genetically, predetermined how much we’re going to weigh. Is that true about money, that there’s a financial “set point?”
I don’t think it’s so much genetic, but I do think that the environmental influences we have, when we’re young, have a huge impact. That impact is largely unconscious. We’re not really aware of the formative moments when something happened to us that created trauma, pain or a decision that, “I’m never going to let that happen to me again. I’m going to behave this way with money in the future, so I don’t have to go through these feelings again.”
KRYDER: It is really complex. My mom had a lot of stuff about money. There were five kids in our family. We were only allowed to have four, Oreo cookies at a time. It was all about counting. Another thing she did – and people will be horrified to hear this, but bless her heart – she said she couldn’t afford to pay for Novocain when we had our fillings worked on. That’s what you’re talking about: those kinds of experiences really impact how we relate to money as adults?
KESSEL: Right. What’s interesting to me is almost genealogically looking back and seeing what caused your mom to have that relationship to money. What was it about having money? When had she not had money? Many people approach not having money with cutting costs. A lot of people, especially in today’s society, approach not having money with ignoring it: with, essentially, putting their heads in the sand and having credit cards, parents, family members or friends pick up the slack. Many people approach not having money with earning more. That’s really why I wrote about these financial personality types or, what I call, the eight, financial archetypes. People react very differently, given a certain situation in life, like not having enough money.
KRYDER: The archetypes are based on the “wanting mind,” it sounds like. Let’s talk about that. You tell a fascinating story about a dentist who doubled his portfolio from four million to eight million. When he saw the eight million on paper, what was his response?
KESSEL: Essentially, his response was, “where are we going from here?” When’s the eight going to become twelve? The response behind the response was, “it’s not enough.” “I thought I wanted to double my money, but now that I have, I’m left with the same feelings of discontent or mal-ease about my money or about my life, so, I guess, I must just need more of the same. That’s what the archetypes are, “more of the same. I think that this will do it for me.” “This” is more savings, as in the dentist’s case, or more spending, as in the case of the pleasure-seeker’s case, or taking more and better care of people that are suffering and need my help, which is what the caretaker would do.
KRYDER: Isn’t that just part of being human, that we have this “wanting mind?” Is it something we can really change?
KESSEL: I think the way we change it is by putting our awareness on it. It’s not that the thoughts stop. I’ve spent many hours, days and weeks in silent meditation. A lot of people think of meditation as emptying your mind of thoughts. I don’t think of it that way. I think of it as placing your awareness in a different place, a different perspective, so you see the thoughts and their unrelenting nature, how they keep rising and falling away. You see there’s no choice in what rises and falls away, really. The change is not to believe them. The change is not acting with money, based on those thoughts that tell you what to do. One of the things I do, with myself, clients and in the book is to ask yourself what the promise is. If the “wanting mind” is saying to you – like with this dentist, “Get from eight million to twelve million,” ask yourself to be very specific about what the inherent promise is. “Why? Will I be happy? Will I be relaxed? Will I not stay awake, late at night, fretting about money and expenses? Tell me exactly what that’s going to give me.” Generally, the “wanting mind” can’t; it doesn’t want to get that specific. But, if it can, then you’ve got an audit trail. You can see if it happens or not. By and large, it doesn’t, as it didn’t for the dentist.
KRYDER: You say the suffering ends – not when we get that thing – when the wanting stops.
KESSEL: That’s right. For some moment, keeping with the dentist, when he first got to eight million, there were a couple of days of peace, of relaxation, of not wanting. I’ve had other moments, in my own life I’ve eaten an incredible meal and I’m so taken with the sensory enjoyment of that meal, that I’m not wanting anything else. Or, I love snowboarding and I’m snowboarding on an incredible, powder day and I’m absolutely present, and there’s no wanting going on. Most entertainment, if you think about what we call a great movie, CD, is great because it keeps us from thinking about our own wants and desires. We’re completely enraptured in the entertainment. It’s that cessation of wanting that is the drug, if you will, that keeps hooking us back into wanting more. We think it’s the object, the four million, the snowboarding, the meal or the blouse that gave us the pleasure. It was the catalyst. It was really the absence of wanting anything that was the real source of our peace.
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